My dh is also in the Knights. 

I have a few comments intended, not to mock or minimize your concerns, but to reassure you. I hope I come across the right way. 

There is nothing wrong with your feelings about this, but the reality of the secret is probably not the threat it feels like.

Isn’t the secret something along the lines of a secret handshake, and commitment to do good? 

Boys, in clubs, tend to have secret handshakes and the like to help them feel a sense of brotherhood.  I think the same is true of the Knights.

They’re probably also following the admoniton, from Jesus, to do good works in secret.  If they made some sort of commitment to each other to do good, they will hold eachother accountable, but if they go and tell their wives, they gain their wives’ admiration for those good actions, and then the actions are no longer done in secret.

Maybe you can ask your husband if what I am saying gets to the general idea of their secret.  That might feel reassuring.

You are a sensitive wife, and what a great world it would be if all wives cared as much about their marriages as you do!

I’m sure a long standing and honorable organization within the church would have been questioned by the church if there was a problem before this.  Maybe you need to be a little more open to other ways of doing things.  Not all that appears bad is, we can’t judge a book by the cover.  I’ve only heard beautiful things that the Knights are involved in and doing.  Maybe it is not something for your husband, but there are SO MANY good men in the Knights.  Even their founder is going through the process of beatification I believe.

hmmm. . . . Be more open to my husband being forced to keep secrets from me.
Be more open to an organization being more important than my marriage vows.
Be more open to my husband disappearing for hours at a time, unable to call me or tell me what happened later.
Be more open to being rudely told to leave the premesis when I drop him off at a meeting.

Yeah, I don’t think I can be open to those things.

This also happened to us. My husband didn’t keep it secret from me, he felt it wasn’t right, and he didn’t go back either. I understand it might be o.k. for others, just not for us.

Is it this way for ALL KC groups? Or are some a little bit more “secretive” then others? I don’t know much about the KC and what they do; other then the group here as a pancake breakfast 2-3 times a year.  I know some of the men and their wifes and I can’t in a million year imagine the husband being so “secretive” with their wife and their wifes being okay with it. It just doesn’t jive with my knowledge of them.

Wow, I would not go for this either. When My husband and I took our vows many years ago, the two of us became one.Half of us could never keep a secret from the other half, even if it were for a church organization( The same church that joined us no less) My husband was invited to join the Knights but declined due to a hectic work schedule and not wanting to lose any time that he now has with his family. Good friends of ours have joined and I know that the wife joined as is a member of the ladies auxiliary. They highly recommend my husband joining and me joining the ladies. Perhaps it is not as secretive in all chapters ? I would hate to have someone decline simply by hearing bad about another chapter ( possibly even half way across the world) Perhaps like anything, Men ( and their other half) should ask questions before jumping in.

My husband has been involved in the Knights for a number of years.  The only “secret” is whatever happens at the initiation ceremonies.  In fact, for most chapters many of their meetings are “open” that is anybody- wives included- would be welcome to sit in.  Most chapters have social meetings where wives and families are encouraged to attend.  Their business meetings are for members only, but from what I understand those are boring as watching astroturf grow anyway.  As for the “secrets” of the initiation.. I understand that the policy is that a Knight is allowed to disclose the entire ceremony to his wife if it is necessary for the good of their marriage.  IOW, if you are truly so uncomfortable with him not telling you, then he *is* allowed to tell you.  I presume the organization would hope that in that circumstance, you would also keep it secret from non-members.

The fact that my DH has this little secret has never bothered me at all simply because I trust him.  I don’t find it threatening at all, in fact if I think about it at all I just think it is a little silly.  And in all his years of involvement, he has never “disappeared” for hours, or been unable to tell me anything about the meeting.  Usually he comes home with lots to talk about, upcoming plans, news from his friends, etc.  I am glad that he has a “safe” place to socialize outside of family and work.

Honestly, it sounds like your problem is not so much with the Knights per se, but issues of trust and control.

Diane,

The situation you describe sounds concerning, but my experience with the Knights (which my husband is also a member of) is similar to what Jennifer describes. That is, the only actual “secrets” are the initiation ceremonies for the various degrees, and that the Knights pride themselves for being a family organization with social and outreach opportunities for wives and children of members. The Knights are a fraternity, so it is appropriate that certain business of the fraternity be discussed among members only, but I’m sure that was crafted in order to build cohesion and friendship among members, not as an attempt to disrupt relationships with non-members (including wives). It actually mirrors many work situations - many spouses have jobs in which they are bound by the law or by ethics (or both) not to discuss details with anyone outside of work, including their spouses.

That said, it sounds like your husband’s council may not have found the right balance. I believe all councils are required to have a chaplain. Perhaps you and your husband could schedule an appointment with the chaplain to discuss the concerns.

To Jennifer—as to my issues of trust/control—please see my reply to Kath farther down the comments.

I have two daughters who have been involved in this program and in my opinion it is absolutely amazing!  The presentation of the materials really “speaks” to the children even as early as 3 years old.  My 4-year-old daughter is not in the program this year but still talks about Atrium and the presentations from last year. I would highly recommend it!

This may be too far out there, but I wondered if anyone had experience with Catechesis of the Good Shepherd at a non-Catholic church?  I looked on the site for one in our area, and there is one that’s about half an hour away, but at a Lutheran church.  I’m not big on pre-school anyway, so it’s not a big deal along those lines.  My little one loves Jesus, but I’m not sure this is the right way to go…

My family has stayed at The Phoenix condos for years and we’ve always enjoyed them.  They have several high-rise complexes in Gulf Shores, AL.

Are they at the altar BEFORE AND/OR DURING the consecration? Or it is it AFTER the consecration? I want to day that before and especially during the consecration NO lay people are suppose to be up on the altar. So that will include the children. I have to find the source to back that up for you. I’m looking now.

Yes, they are there the entire time from the Presentation of the Gifts until the Sign of Peace.  At that point they are sent back to their seats, and the Eucharistic Miniisters come to the altar.

My pastor is really a great priest.  He is incredibly pro-life (esp for my liberal diocese), and his homilies are incredible.  He loves kids and I know he’s trying to do something great for them.  I just don’t think this is the way to go.

If extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion are required by patoral need, they should NOT approach the altar BEFORE the priest has received Communion. After the priest has concluded his own Communion, he distributes Communion to the extraordinary ministers, assisted by the deacon, and then hands the sacred vessels to them for distribution of Holy Communion to the people. source: http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/girm/lit4.shtml 

This means NO lay person should be up at the altar during the Eucharistic pray, consecration, etc. If they are up there until the sign of peace then it sound as if they are there during the consecration and that’s a big NO-NO. Also you might find it helpful to read over the GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal): http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

I’ve seen parishes that have removed the children for their own reading, however inviting the children to be up on/at the altar during the consecration is a big NO-NO. I would immediately stop my children from going up to the altar.

Even GREAT priest have an error in judgment that’s what makes us human! I don’t doubt his intentions are good, but there is the GIRM for a reason, you know?  The going out and having their own readings an homily doesn’t bother me as much, it’s them being up on the altar and that is and with good reason.

Our church has a Liturgy of the Word for Children program, which sounds like you are describing but the children do not go up on the alter after returning but back to the pew with their families. We do however have a practice where those receiving private first Communion ( we can choose group or private. All of my children had private) are invited to stand next to Father during the Consecration ( their family carries the gifts up and the child stay when their families go back after presenting the gifts) They then walk down off the alter with the Priest, who carries the Chalice with Eucharist and a Eucharistic minister who carries the cup . At this point the family joins around the child and he/ she receives for the first time. The eligible family receives after the child and they return to their pew at which point the other Eucharistic ministers come down from the alter and the rest of the( eligible) church is invited to receive.It really is a very beautiful ceremony and the child is right there so nothing is missed.
I believe that I heard that the change where this was allowed happened with the abolishment of the Communion rail, though I do not know where it is written. I do agree that 50 or so young children could be come Chaotic and disruptive. Perhaps you could talk to the Priest( or DRE) and respectably voice your concern ( disrespect and disruption) and maybe things will be reconsidered or tweaked to address your concerns.

The removal of communion rails haven’t “changed” things. There is still the GIRM which I quote from above. It is clear that NO laity, regardless of the reasons, should be on/at the altar during the consecration. As beautiful as the ceremony you describe is, it still violates the GIRM. The website that I used as my source earlier is the USCCB (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops) site. I would assume that it’s the USCCB site the information is valid, wouldn’t you?

What does everyone think about the so called “Children’s Liturgy of the Word.”  Should our kids be leaving for this?  I wrestle with this every Sunday.  While I think it is a nice idea for before or after Mass, I’m not sure it is correct to split up families during the liturgy and then read them “their own readings” which I am not even sure where these readings come from.  Is there a program that is endorsed by the church or is every parish using their own program?  I want to solve this once and for all so I can stop fretting and make a decision.

Our parish does the same thing. The children are at the front for the consecration and don’t return to their parents until the sign of peace. The children in our parish are at the foot of the stairs leading up to the alter and are not actually at the alter. They are immediately in front of it, though, just five steps down. Is this still unacceptable? We are recent converts and are also new to this parish and I hadn’t even thought about it being a wrong way of doing things.

Personally I think it depends on how it’s done and what is used. Clearly, I believed based GIRM and other things I have read the laity have no place on/at the altar during the consecration. So programs that include that to me would be a huge NO-NO. I’m not even sure if before the leaving if they should be assembled at the altar for a blessing, but at the same time how else would you round up the troops? So that I doesn’t bother me as much, because some kind of gesture has to be made to let the kids and families know that it’s time for the children to go. A simple gather and blessing at the beginning seems good enough, and the kids should when they come back have a ruff idea where their families so returning to the family pew shouldn’t be to hard or too distracting.

Many, I can’t say all, but many programs use the same readings as the ones in Mass. They are just a more of a child friendly version.  I personally don’t have a problem with that, I, at home, read a children’s bible and bible stories to my almost 8 and 9 year old. Not all the time but at times. So that’s okay, in my opinion. If they were child friendly versions of the same readings no big deal.

As for the children’s homilies? That I think is more of a touchy issue. I think it really depends on WHO is giving the homilies. There are some people I would not want my kids listening too. They are lovely people, good people, but have miss understanding of Catholicism, or feel that things should be different (i.e. woman priest) and at times when they talk even to the kids it indirectly shows.

Finally, The age of participation! Personally if they are OLD ENOUGH for communion then they are OLD ENOUGH to REMAIN in Church! My oldest has already received first communion and my youngest is in the middle of preparing to receive by the end of March. If my parish still provided a Children’s Liturgy, my kids WOULD NOT be going. They would be remaining in Mass, because they are at the age to receive communion themselves, therefore they should be apart of the WHOLE liturgy with the REST of parish family that is also able to receive.

SAHMinIL - Thanks so much for the links.  I couldn’t find the GIRM online when I searched last week!  That’s exactly what I was looking for.

We have not yet been blessed w/ children, so I’m really not sure how this particular program is run, but I would certainly look into it before even thinking of sending my kids.  No one but a priest should be giving a homily and I definitely agree that once they are old enough to receive the Eucharist, they should not be leaving for “Children’s Church.”

Anyways… thanks for all the comments.  I’ll hopefully be talking to our pastor about this soon.

Wow, I am so not in synch with you ladies here today, very different for me, but I thought I would add my comments to give a different persepctive.
Fisrt, we just moved as well and our new parish has a children’s liturgy for k-4. Our 2 oldest go right before the first reading and return after the Homily. We keep the 2 littles with us since they are not old enough to attend. They do split up the kids by age, so the 1st grader gets a different experience from the 4th grader, but I have nothing but good to say about it. My children come home from Mass having really understood the readings and Gospel. They often use props, and puppets, etc. They talk about what the readings mean to them in their lives and in their families. They are the same readings and Gospels we are hearing, but explained at their level. I don’t think they have ever understood as much about the Word as they have in the past 2 months as part of the Children’s Liturgy, and they are in Catholic School and we have always read the Magnificat for children together.
Last week, the 2nd graders were invited to the Altar to learn about the Eucharistic Prayer and Consecration. Now, the Priest is actually a few steps higher, as the children were at the base (about 2 steps from ground level where the Altar sits), so I am not sure if this is considered really being at the Altar, but anyway they were all up there. He explained that onece he starts the Eucharistic Prayer he can’t stop, so first he went through the whole thing, I have to say even I learned a lot . Then Father proceeded with Mass and the children were still up there with him. My 1st grader (not part of this group) was standing on the kneeler straining to see through the whole thing, he was SO interested. I thought it was fabulous, and what a way to really teach the children.
Maybe if it bothers you to see the children there you can attend Mass at a different time (since you mention this only happens during one of the Masses). As a mom of 4, I think it is a wonderful Blessing to have a parish Priest so dedicated to teaching my children about the mystery of the Mass. Even after they receive communion (at age 7), they can benefit from some instruction at their own level in my opinion.
I hope you are able to find what you are looking for in your new parish.

lol, its lousiana bayou speak for “whose that?” - as in, look who it is who’s in the superbowl - ” ‘dem Saints” (them Saints - those saints).  they’ve never been to the superbowl, so the LA folks were superexcited

lol “Who Dat” is nothing new for the Saints fans.  It’s been around for quite some time.  It’s poor english for “Who is that.”  It’s the first part of the chant “Who Dat?  Who Dat?  Who Dat say they gonna beat them Saints?”  In the past few years, “Who Dat” has become a way to say that you’re a Saints fan, i. e. the Who Dat Nation.  As a native Louisianian, I’ve always secretly hated that chant (even though I’m a huge Saints fan) since it just reinforces the poor image of Louisiana.  But, I’ve embraced it the past few weeks!  Who Dat!!

Well, just remember that it is a very temporary thing. And pray continually. Start praying now for the graces to overcome any temper issues. Also, be sure to eat protein. It can be cheese or eggs and those are easy. Also, I have found distraction helps. Read something, go for a walk, play a game with the kids. And if you are a coffee drinker and not giving it up for Lent, be sure to get in your coffee. And of course stay hydrated with water. It is hard and it is a sacrifice, but it can also be so beneficial.

Betsy I think it’s good that you recognize something you need to deal with! I too have struggled due to low blood sugar. Also realize that pregnant and nursing moms are not bound by the rules of the fast, and neither are those with health concerns. Low blood sugar is a health concern. We don’t need you passing out while driving or tending to your children! In my case, I chose my meals carefully for maximum nutrition and low “fillers”. And on occasions when I don’t think I can “make it” through, I would take a glass of orange juice. I don’t particularly care for orange juice, so it was in no way a delight for me to break the fast that way. Still, it was enough to keep my blood sugar up and by taking liquid only, I felt I was keeping to the spirit of the fast. I hope that helps you—and maybe others will have good ideas as well.

Fasting is really hard for me too.  Here’s how I make it through:  frequent prayer, all throughout the day.  I like to put a crucifix nearby, with a large printout saying, “We adore You, O Christ, and we praise You, because by Your Holy Cross, You have redeemed the world.”  I pray this frequently.  I also plan as low stress a day as possible, with no major grocery shopping or anything, and like to put some holy music if possible.  The low blood sugar issue is a big one though, and I have adopted an “alternate” type of fasting, which I believe is still in the spirit of the prescribed fast.  I’ll eat only 6 pieces of bread all day, BUT, I do not do the “1 large meal and 2 smaller”, but rather, I spread out the bread to eat every 2 hours throughout the day and evening.  Believe me, it’s still very much a sacrifice, and I’m still really hungry, but I avoid the low blood sugar while keeping the fasting spirit.  I also like the above mentioned idea of sipping juice, though for me that wouldn’t be sacrificial.  And yes, definitely drink lots of water to stay hydrated (and also helps you feel a little less hungry).

I don’t have sources to back this up, but it’s my understanding that as a general rule liquids don’t break the fast. In the past I’ve had juice or milk to tide me over between meals. On the other hand, obviously you don’t want to be sitting there drinking milkshakes all day because they’re “liquid”...prudence and all that.

Since you compare your symptoms to having PMS all the time, I wonder if you have a hormonal imbalance. I suggest talking to your ob/gyn about this.

First of all, there appear to be two Dianes commenting.  I am the first one.

Do I expect my husband to disclose every single little thing to me?  No. Especially if it is somebody else’s secret, told to him in confidence.  However, when he comes home after being gone for hours, visibly shaky, disturbed, and emotional, and wants to tell me something but cannot because he was sworn to secrecy (before knowing what he was to keep a secret), that upsets me.  And him.

I’ve never heard of pregnant women being excused from the abstinence rules.  When I was pregnant, I understood that fish once a week was OK for pregnant women, so I ate fish on Fridays.  I figured I’d have a little mercury to go along with the antibiotics in the beef and hormones in the chicken.    I think you should talk with your priest about your situation because he can give you a dispensation if you need one.

Those who are excused from fast or abstinence Besides those outside the age limits, those of unsound mind, the sick, the frail, pregnant or nursing women according to need for meat or nourishment,  manual laborers according to need, guests at a meal who cannot excuse themselves without giving great offense or causing enmity and other situations of moral or physical impossibility to observe the penitential discipline. Source: http://www.ewtn.org/faith/lent/fast.htm

So being pregnant you are NOT bound to abstain or fast. Fridays are days of penance, so extra time in prayer, doing a corporal or spiritual work of mercy on those days would in MY OPINION would be very fitting, especially if you can not abstain.  TRUTHFULLY we are suppose to do a form of penance on ALL Fridays not just Fridays during Lent. I wrote a blog post about that on my blog last year: http://catholicchristianhomeschooling.blogspot.com/2009/02/friday-meatless-penance.html

Here’s a post on it by Bethany Hudson, a very faithful Catholic, with a promise of more to come soon: http://applecidermama.blogspot.com/2010/02/cooking-in-lenten-kitchen.html