My thoughts exactly. We’ve had such a situation in our parish school. Parents divorced, and bitterly so, to the point that both could not be at school at the same time, or participate in the same activity. How do you reach out to both parents in that case? It’s also been hard because one was more involved—willingly—than the other, yet both attend church with the children. And yes, you don’t want to (unwittingly) offend either one. The only thing we have really been able to do is support my child’s classmate as much as possible, even though they (the child of the divorce) really disliked the situation they were in, and often felt like they were a pawn being pulled back and forth. I would love some suggestions on how to approach or help in such a case.

Mrs. Donahue, I’m so sorry for what you’ve gone through.

No, the Church does not find loopholes.  They do a very lengthy and involved investigation to identify whether there are factors that invalidated the marriage.  If they find some, they grant the annulment.  If they don’t, they don’t grant one. 

My marriage preparation was a joke.  The priest did nothing to establish whether we were both entering into marriage properly disposed.  We were, but think of all the couples who fall through the cracks because of priests like him.  I’m sure there are many, many people who didn’t enter into this sacrament properly disposed.  That doesn’t mean that their marriage is automatically invalid.  The grace of the sacrament is there for them to receive, and the marriage has the potential to be valid (and is presumed to be so unless proven otherwise).  But there is lots of potential for marriages to be invalid if the parties involved didn’t have a good understanding of Biblical marriage and weren’t committed to it.

I am sorry Claire that you had such poor marriage prep.  I preferenced my comments with the word “outrageous” so I was certainly prepared for a quick response.

My marriage prep was excellent.  Many couples I know who went thru the same marriage prep with the same priest wound up getting annulments.  These were not nominal Catholics entering into marriage lightly.  They had adequate and excellent prep and were deeply involved in their faith.  My husband and I and these couples were all questioned separately re: a list of reason that would make the marriage invalid.  There was nothing that was not clear.

I’m sorry but this leads me to question the process.  Nearly every one tht applies for an annulment gets one. I’m sure if you can find the statistics on the number that apply and the number granted—it is nearly 100%.  There are a few cases here and there.

I understand the Church needs to stick with its teaching that marriage is forever and that declaring a marriage invalid is the only way out.  I can accept that—I just can’t reconile the discrepancies I see.  I hope that doesn’t make me any less of a Catholic than you:)

If there is someone that has a more accurate statistic on the % of annulments given from those who apply I’d like to hear it.  My thought on it comes from someone who works directly with the process and mentioned that only once did an annulment get denied.  Maybe this is not accurate?  Maybe more are denied?

Beth,
I don’t have stats, just personal experience.  Prior to applying for (and eventually being granted) an annulment I had to meet with a member of the marriage tribunal office in my former diocese.  It was to discuss in depth my life and courtship leading up to the marriage and the marriage itself.  They told me that they have these meetings to ascertain the likelihood of an annulment being granted..to save time, heartache and money for those unlikely to have valid grounds.  This may be part of why the applications to granted numbers trend so high.

I agree Claire.  I think that a prerequisite for commenting on a Catholic website is that one should accept Catholic teaching on everything.  Which is not the same as how to apply the teachings of the magisterium.  There can be legitimate disagreement on the application of Catholic teaching in different circumstances. I welcome opinions that give a new or different perspective on an issue with the assumption that it is in line with the magisterium.  In fact, I am usually on the opposite side of the majority opinions on this site. But knowing dissension is off-base; there are plenty of other websites for that.  And as you mentioned, Claire, all we have to do is step outside to get that.

If it is not about who is more Catholic then why do I think everytime I post something you are questioning my identity as a Catholic.  I think we see things very differently and just because your theologically background gives you a different perspective you feel threatened every time I question something.  I am not playing a game or trying to get a rise out of people.  Maybe it would be helpful not to repond to my posts if you are that upset about it.  I would hope that critical thinking skills are welcome here and I would hope that questions are welcome here.  I think as Catholics we do need to be critical of the Magisterium and actions of the church at times.  I do enjoy a good discussion about things that I see and don’t understand and don’t match up with what the church teaches.  I think some question asking individuals could have saved the church and alot of children a great deal of grief in the past few decades.  I’m sorry this appears to you to be something else and that you find this unacceptable.

Determining that a marriage is invalid is the only the way if someone wants to remarry and receive the sacraments.

Was I not clear in my second response that I accepted Catholic teaching but struggled with so many marriages being annulled then giving you the examples of why I felt that way?  Instead of “loophole”, I could have used the word “many reasons” are found for granting annulments.  “Loophole” created something that made you feel I was attacking the church when perhaps someone could have answered my concerns more deeply. I will be more careful about my use of words but it does appear to me that they seem to be able to find any reason.  (This is based on my experience of knowing annulled couples intimately and walking thru an annullment with someone…)

The Pope has even questioned the granting of annulments in America.  I think my point is a legimate disagreement on the application of church teaching as well as some of our different conversations.

I did say I understand why some may not want to go thru the process—it can appear to be alot of red tape.  I still can not reconcile the discrepancies that I see and witness with what the church teaches and it seems that at times that Vatican can’t either.

I am not questioning your identity as a Catholic.  The only time I ever questioned that was when you said that you found the Vatican to be in opposition to the gospel.  You explained further, and I then understood that you weren’t talking about the Vatican as a whole.  I am questioning why you jump at every chance you get to insult the magesterium and people who are faithful to it.  Not only that, but you take every opportunity to get in little digs against stay-at-home moms, and even the bloggers on this site.  Which makes me wonder why you come here so often, if you think it’s wrong for them to blog.  It’s a pattern that I see.  Yes, critical thinking is a good thing.  Monica alluded to that in her post.  No, it was not clear to me from your second post that you accepted Church teaching on marriage.  You said it in so many words, but other words like “loophole” and “annulment is the only way out” seemed to contradict it.

I don’t feel threatened when people question things.  I feel threatened when sarcasm and other subtle little digs are targeted toward the Church.  Threatened isn’t really the right word, but it bothers me.  Like I said, I get that constantly from the secular world.  It would be nice to get a break from it among Catholics.

I don’t make the rules around here, and you can post whatever you want.  And I know I should keep my mouth shut instead of taking the bait.  But when I see digs against the Church, the magesterium, and the bloggers on this site who are providing a valuable ministry to people like me who don’t have a community of faithful Catholics in their real life, it is very hard for me to keep quiet.

I just wanted to chime in and reassure you Claire that I “take the bait” all too often as well

Particularly in regard to NFP, this particular poster seems to make *almost* snide remarks again and again.  I feel super paranoid always reading into things, but when they get repeated every week, I begin to think its a pattern.

amen!

Well said Danielle.  I used to work as a nurse in the operating room, where personalities tend toward forceful and strong.  We had a phrase for when people seemed to regularly rub each other the wrong way, even when they basically agreed on the subject at hand.  It was a less delicate form of “chapping each other’s hind quarters.”  It was a light way to point out the tendency to pick at the other while being extra sensitive yourself and also provided an escape clause for when tempers started to escalate - you could just say “I’m starting to get chapped” and it was code for changing the subject or let it drop for awhile.

you’re right Danielle, i need to give the benefit of the doubt more often and i apologize for antagonizing.

Beth, the SAHM issue I was referring to was on a thread in the past couple of weeks where a SAHM was upset that her doctor asked her what she was doing for herself, and she interpreted this as a criticism that being a SAHM isn’t enough of a vocation.  You mentioned something to the effect that SAHMs are very defensive, or something like that, I can’t remember the exact remark, but it was not charitable toward SAHMs.  I appreciate that you defend mothers who work outside the home.  I unfortunately had to work fulltime for 15 months when my son was a baby, and I’ve worked 15 hours/week for the past two years and will continue to do so indefinitely.  But I still can’t blame a SAHM who gets ruffled when someone implies that what she does is not enough, as if taking care of children doesn’t require intelligence, skills and creativity.  Of course, if she is misinterpreting what the person is implying, that’s another story.

Anyway, maybe Danielle and Lina are right.  Maybe it’s an issue of misunderstanding because communication gets skewed on the internet, without the benefit of body language, tone of voice, etc.  Maybe I need to just give people the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming that something is a pattern.  I’ve acknowledged that before, and I guess I needed another reminder.

And, the truth is that I feel that you (Beth) and I actually agree on a lot of things.  I can’t remember a lot of specific examples, but I know there have been many times when we’ve been on the same “page” regarding one topic or another.

I will try to take Danielle’s advice and not engage if I don’t think it will result in a fruitful discussion.  Try being the operative word, because it is hard for me to keep quiet when I feel the need to defend things that are important to me such as Church teaching.  But I’m not very good at defending it, so I probably need to just let it go rather than doing more harm than good.

It is to our disadvantage that we can not read tone and have a conversation. I ask questions that are in my mind and things I see in the Church that I have trouble with and I do have trouble with quite a bit—I know it is obvious.  I think someone can be critical of the Church and still love their faith deeply.  There have been significant events in the Church and groups with in the Church that lead me to look at the human side of it.  Especially within the last few years.

I do know what thread you are referencing.  I do believe that there is a lot of defensiveness from SAHM’s AND working moms because either side has felt attacked at one point in time.  We all want validation that our choice is the best choice and we are doing it right.  I referenced my own defensiveness as a SAHM during a difficult time in my life and how I thought a doctor’s question that I responded defensively to was actually right on.  The doctor was not mocking my role as a SAHM and was only asking if I took time to myself.  It was not until some time after my encounter with this doctor that I realized it and understood what she meant.  I believed that was what the poster’s doctor was asking her by asking her what she did outside of her role as a mom.  Almost all of my closest friends are SAHM’s—some work part time. I work part time now and I love it.  I was challenging us not to be so defensive—sometimes the secular world does have good insight.  I imagined the poster was at the doctor’s office with symptoms of depression/anxiety and maybe the doctor was making a good point that was taken the wrong way.  It would seem unusual for a doctor to ask a woman that question if she was not at the doctor’s office for a medical reason.  I think it is helpful to ask more questions when we think we are being attacked because of our life choices—maybe the poster should have clarified to the doctor what she thought he said to verify if she was right in her interpretation.  I had absolutely no intention to downplay the value of being a SAHM and I thought I didn’t mess up on that one because I made personal reference to my own similiar experience. 

I think it is important for moms to have other roles as well perhaps sister, friend, wife, writer, walker, artist etc and that we should encourage each other to have these roles as they ultimately build up our motherhood.  I didn’t realize that in my early days of mothering.

Danielle has good advice.  Everyone should respond to things that will help them and build them up.  I am not out to irritate or play games with anyone or “bait” anyone nor do I want to create a place where you think your faith is being attacked.  I’ll be careful about that part but no matter what I say or someone else says there are always 50 different ways it can be read.  I do know that I am not as conservative in my theology as most on this site and I can see that conflict—I think there is a broad range of interpretation on some things and that some feel that only the most narrow interpretation is acceptable/within church teaching.  I see some of this come up when people relate differences in what the word “grave” means or how we view christians who are outside of the Church.

In regards to NFP questions, I do disagree with sayings like, “God keeps surprising us” I find that misleading and—that is all some tell their family who is worried sick about them because of severe post partum depression or foreclosure of their home.  And then they are confused why their family does not understand.  I think if we are trying to communicate truth to the world we have to do it in a real way and by that I mean owning up to our free will, responsibility combined with God’s miracle of new life.  Sometimes we get into this Catholic lingo or sayings and I think people who don’t understand need something in clearer terms.  (I say that because I am trying to remember what I said in the NFP thread that came across as against church teaching or perceived as “snide” remarks by Lina)  I have agreed that NFP classes should be more honest from the beginging—that NFP for some involves abstinance 25 days or more per month and this can be destructive in a marriage but others agreed with that as well.  I noticed several have referenced their own frustrations with feeling misled with their NFP classes and recommended they be more honest with them.  I do think the word “open to life” can be misused and misunderstood and we reference it so much so maybe something came up on that as well.  Please don’t interpret asking us to speak to the world in a way that is clear as “snide”  I also have said that I can understand families that make comments expressing concern when new pregnancies are announced because I know my own family was very worried about me and I know other families do have serious concerns when they see how overwhelmed a couple is and more confusion is added when the term “God keeps surprising us ” is added as if the couple has no idea how they keep getting pregnant.  (Is the the part that is considered “snide”)  I do have a hard time being an apologist for NFP—not sure I’ll ever have that down

Peace:)

Thanks Beth, for taking the time to explain how you felt.  I found myself nodding along with many of the things you wrote, as I usually do.

Perhaps I have your *voice* in my head, or maybe we are just experiencing some of the same life struggles together, at the same time, that helps me know what you are saying, and how you are saying it.  I really appreciate your opinion and hope you will keep posting.

I know it “bugs” some people when a post is written by an Anonymous, but I also have commented with my REAL name, too.  I guess I just felt like I was complaining A LOT about my difficulties in my marriage—especially NFP stuff.  I actually couldn’t believe I had gotten myself in such a marital mess, with someone I thought was going to be a wonderful mate.  I was scared and needed to have a community that was faithful to the church that could maybe steer me in the right direction even though I was freaking out and didn’t want to own up that I needed to do something about it.  So, I wrote in under a pen-name—“Anon..again” to get the support from this community,
so I could get brave and deal with it.
I met with Father last week, and I have such hope!  I am still processing a lot of the information he shared, and my husband, so far, seems pretty open to both of us making some changes for the good of our family.  He even said he would meet with Father to talk, and that is such a huge step that I thought was impossible!  Praise God!

I, also, believe that being “open to life” is more than just having as many babies as possible.  I think we have to be there emotionally, physically and spiritually to raise our children that we already HAVE!  Now, I’m not saying you all are saying that, but that is the biggest argument my husband and I are having right now. 

Thanks for everyone in this forum for your opinion and ideas even if we just disagree…I value the ideas I have gotten from this group of people!