I agree with you totally Older Mom. I also feel pressured to have ‘THE’ Catholic family, but in all honesty if I only have the 3 that I have I’d be extremely happy I believe there is too much empasis on Big families and not on following God’s will and design for you and YOUR family!!

I completely agree.  I have three children and am very happy with my family size.  I may consider more in the future, but for now, I am fulfilled.  I like to be close to each of my children, and while having a large family doesn’t make that impossible, I believe it does make it more difficult.  I have lots of love to give, but only so much time.  My husband works long hours - just today he left the house at 8 a.m. and it’s now after 10 p.m. and he is still not home.  I do not have family nearby who can help me.  I need to be sure I can meet the needs of my current family.  There’s often too much focus on the QUANTITY of kids, rather than the QUALITY.

Whether coming from a family with 1 child or coming from a family with 20 children…every child is “quality”...a precious & immortal soul made in the image & likeness of God.  Let us thank God for entrusting us with the awesome privilege & responsibility of caring for these precious souls who belong to Him!

Wow, C. I wonder if you could explain what constitutes a QUALITY child, in your opinion.

S,
The “quantity” versus “quality” comment made by C kind of jumped out at me, as well.  Hence, my comment above.  I do think that C probably meant “quantity” of children (as in the number of children in a given family) versus the “quality” of attention or care an individual mother may feel that she can give to each child. 
In this day & age when we hear the “quality of life” argument used to justify the taking of human life by abortion or euthanasia, I think I am just very sensitive to how the word “quality” is used as a description for human life at any stage.  Of course all life is a gift from God & has infinite “quality” (i.e. value, worth).

I know exactly how you feel!  I just explained to my husband how important NFP was to me.  It was VERY difficult for about a year, and there was a lot of anger and frustration from my husband.  I was extra loving, prayed constantly, and made concessions to be more, um eager and available, when I was not fertile.  We do abstain during my fertile period for a reason I’ve discussed with my confessor, and we are finding that the short abstinence period makes our intimate life more enjoyable because we long for each other and make the first “free” night extra special.

I’m troubled by the phrase: if you believe you need to remain faithful…If a Catholic is not faithful to Church teaching and uses artificial birth control, that is a sin. Also, the Church may not give a list of reasons, but does say that the reason to refrain from conceiving needs to be GRAVE.

And to SM I ask, what is GRAVE?  Grave is different for every couple.  I’m not saying this in defense of artificial means, but every couple must decide this for themselves.

SM,
For the umpteenth time on this site, in the CCL magazine, on TOB sites and books, and from the Vatican: “grave” is a mistranslation. The version of Humanae Vitae on the Vatican website, which is THE official version, does not use the word grave. You need a legitimate, non-trivial reason. You do not need a grave, life-or-death reason.

SM—sorry to trouble you—it was not meant to be troubling if your conscience tells you you need to be faithful to the Magisterium then you better be—It seems to be tedious of you to pick that apart.  There are people who are not catholic who use birth control and in my opinion have very strong marriages.  You can’t infer that they are committing a mortal sin.

thanks to the other poster for clarity on the “grave” meaning

Non Catholics don’t have any teachings against birth control, so it couldn’t be a mortal sin for them, since mortal sin requires full consent to commit an act that is known to be sinful.  Also, I have a feeling that most people don’t know that hormonal contraceptives can function as abortifaciets.

Thanks for the lecture, but what makes you think that I don’t have a large family already?  I don’t like the pity card.  If you want to have a lot of children and your husband is on board, go for it.  Do it because you want to do it and be happy and joyful about it.  But not every woman has that specific calling.  It may be a huge stretch for a very selfish woman to have one or two children.  That stretch just may get her into Heaven.  It’s not up to us to decide who belongs there and who doesn’t.

I think that the whole point of Simcha’s article (link at the top of this post) was that we need to stop judging others based on family size and what we feel others should be doing.  I agree that there can often be pressure on Catholic circles to have ‘bigger’ families.  Bigger by whose definition?  I know moms who grew up as only children that honestly feel that three children is a big family.  I know others who grew up in families if ten or more who would consider five to be small.  Many moms may limit family size due to reasons unknown to us.  They may carry the cross of depression, anxiety disorders, a husband who does not support her, etc.  I’ve heard some suggest that these moms should trust God and be open to more children, but perhaps through prayer and spiritual direction that mom may have already discerned that she needs to limit her family size FOR NOW.  The beauty of NFP is that it is never final.  God gives us a chance each and every month to prayerfully consider how we can be open to life.  I am no expert, but my close friend was a personal friend of Germaine Grisez (sp).  He was close to JPII and had an influence on his work.  Anyway, he told my friend that for some moms their cross may be that they had to limit their family size when in their hearts they may truly desire more children.  I think we would better serve each other by praying for each more and judging less.

Jeanine, Bravo! Exactly my sentiments too. I couldn’t have said it better myself!!

I don’t usually get involved in NFP discussions (I’ve never once commented or even read the weekly forum, for example), because it doesn’t pertain to me, as I have only been pregnant twice in 7 years of marriage and have never carried to term.  But I read Simcha’s and Betty’s posts because I subscribed to their blogs, and I thought they both had a lot of great insights.  Personally, I think it would be very hard for someone to be selfish while utilizing NFP.  It involves sacrifice and is certainly not a quick fix or an easy way out.  Artificial contraception, on the other hand, is not open to life and could definitely involve selfishness.  As could artificial reproductive technology, for those like me on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Hi Claire,

What I meant about being selfish was refraining from having more children for selfish reasons.  The church has not actually given a “list” but if we are being selfish about why we are using NFP we can be sure we are using it sinfully. 

I do hope and pray that your fertility issues can be resolved without having to turn to the oposite end of the spectum , which in many cases is almost always done for selfish reasons. 

The other day I was a friends house and became very uncomfortable first hearing about this mom talk about a motorcycle driver who was killed in an accident in front of her on her way home with dinner that she picked up at a Restraurant.  All she could do was talk about how she was stuck there waiting for them to unblock the road while her dinner was getting cold.  Then later when the issue of having more children came up she responded that she was pretty sure she was done as she wanted to be able to take the whole family out west to see the Grand Canyon some day she insuituated that having more children now would ” get in the way” of her dreams and wants for her and her family.  To me , I cringed, I knew this mom was no more than 35 or 36 and thought she had quite a few more years of fertlity, it sounded as though she had made up her mind.  The thing about NFP is that you can never really say when someone asks you ” are you done yet”.  Since the only sure way to prevent a child is abstinence you always leave the door open when using NFP.  Saying you are done sounds to me like it is coming from someone who is using contraception.

Hi Michelle,

    My fertility issues never did resolve, and at this point I highly doubt that they will.  But my husband and I never resorted to anything immoral in our journey to parenthood.  We adopted a beautiful baby boy who made our struggles completely worthwhile, which is not to say that the pain will ever completely go away, but he is worth every heartache we’ve suffered. 

    Your friend does sound selfish.  I am guilty of grumbling over traffic jams, but I would like to think I would refrain in a situation where a traffic jam caused someone’s death.  I still think it would be very unusual for NFP to be used selfishly.  My gut reaction would be that if someone were really selfish about not wanting more kids, they would not worry about being open to life and instead would use an easier (i.e. artificial) method of avoiding a conception.  But of course, only God knows all the details and can see someone’s heart and motives, so if I did get involved in these forums more often, I would have to try hard to avoid speculation about people’s decisions in this area. 

    The interesting thing for me about reading these recent articles is the similarities between the options I was faced with when trying to conceive and the options that couples are faced with when trying to avoid or postpone a pregnancy.  I had never considered the parallels before.

Michelle,
I will take your argument seriously when you stop judging other mothers about their family size.  It’s none of your business.  Secondly, women using ABC can stop taking it, just like those using NFP can have intercourse during the fertile period in order to achieve pregnancy. 
You are right, I will stop using the “called to” with regards to family size.  Hopefully, those who are “called to” home school and wear dresses and skirts only will head my example as well.

Older mom,
So it is okay to judge other acts like stealing, adultry , murder etc. as being sinful but not being open to life due to selfishness?  It is judging the sin not the sinner.
I am sure that if you homeschool you probably think others should too, and likewise if your daughter wear modest clothing , you probably think others should dress their daughters as you do. 
I will honestly say I am too lazy to pick the battle of having my daughters wear long skirts and right now after homeschooling for many years can’t handle it, but may in the future.  I think homeschooling is good but honestly most parents are too lazy or selfish to do it.  Surely it is an act of motherhood that will help us get to heaven.

Michelle,
This argument is tiresome.  You do not know the reasons why any couple decides to have or not have children.  So it’s not for you to judge.  For the record, I don’t homeschool and don’t care if others do or not.  It’s none of my business.

Well said, Faith and Reason.

Excellent Faith and Reason, exactly my sentiments!! Well said.

I have been in your place Stalemate, I know how scary it can be to be nursing and trying to use NFP especially when your baby is so young.  I was told after the birth of my 7th child that I could die if I got pregnant again.  I found out almost a year later that the doctor had lied to me to cover his butt since I almost died after that birth. 

The good news is that I have been able to go on and have 2 more children since then!  More recently, it took almost 2 full years for me to get my period back , then when I did I started getting it every 22, or 23 days! Since I am older I figured by body was trying to sprew out all those eggs that never had a chance since I was either nursing or pregnant for so many years, it has been a challenge.

Have you tried talking to a Priest with your husband about this? I think this is something that could have helped me and my spouse in the past 6 months. 

My husband actually tried to tell me he thought we were using NFP with a ” contraception mentality”.  I know now that our Priest could have helped him .

It is interesting that Sheila Kipley suggests in her book, Breastfeeding and Catholic Motherhood, that God did not intend children (in general) to be closer than two years or so.  Now I don’t want to misquote her and I know that she was not suggesting that it is wrong to have children closer.  She was simply stating that in cultures where women really practice attachment parenting and nurse their babies for two to three years (or more) babies are naturally spaced two to three years or even four.  She really believes that God intended that spacing for babies to really form a healthy attachment to their moms.  Of course we don’t all nurse babies for so long and in our stressed culture, women’s cycles return earlier even in those that do nurse longer.  Certainly there are no absolutes and each woman is different but reading her book really helped me to see this issue through new eyes.  I really believe that God did not intend women to have babies every fifteen months or so.  Not that it is wrong, but I think one could justify spacing babies further apart simply because God’s natural law would have naturally spaced babies that way.  Sheila Kipley’s book is a wonderful read for Catholic moms.

This is us as well - am so so tired . some days i wish i did not know about NFP because we have tried NFP 3 times bt i just have trouble figuring out the pp time - its a nightmare . Iam not sure our marriage can survive this . WHats wrong with me ? How come others can figure this out and i cant ?

Though I certainly think decisions about NFP should be made together, in cases like this, I think the woman’s thought trumps. After all, SHE is the one who has to carry the baby, deliver the baby, breastfeed the baby, etc. all while caring for the other children. If she says she is stretched thin, her husband should have the courtesy to believe her. At the same time, as Gregory Popcak discusses in Holy Sex (great read, and very useful!), both spouses have an obligation to understand the other. The husband should believe his wife, and if he really, really wants them to conceive again, he should ask his wife what would need to happen in order for her to be ready for another baby. If she says, “Just time” then he needs to be patient. If she says, “A full-time housekeeper, a mother’s helper five days a week, and a home chef; OR one year spacing,” he should take her at her word and seriously consider either getting her some help at home so they can be ready sooner or just waiting.

It might also be helpful to discuss different ways to handle the seemingly interminable abstinence during the postpartum transition time when fertility is gearing up but no ovulation has occurred. A good NFP insturctor is invaluable (if you can get them to call you back).

My fertility returned at three months, even though we were cosleeping and exclusively nursing (really, we were eco-bfeeding, but I wasn’t taking that nap Sheila stresses).  Since then, we’ve been on the postpartum nfp rollercoaster.  Lots of abstinence to the point where dh thinks it’s not worth it to try and space a future pregnancy since the abstinence is having such a negative effect on our marriage.

As an NGP teacher, I am wondering if all of you having trouble with charting are taking advantage of asking a teacher.  Whoever you originally trained under should offer free follow ups.  We have even helped friends who were trained in other methods.  It helps so much to have someone holding your hand during this sometimes challenging postpartum time.  Even I have and questions that I have asked someone who has seen hundreds more charts than us.  I’d you have never taken a class, sign up ASAP.  There is no need for weeks and months of abstinence during this period.

Stalemate, you might find the article that I posted in response to Anne to be helpful.  Perhaps your husband can read it.  . http://www.totustuus.com/prolife.htm

Stalemate,
I think Jeanine pointed it out beautifully that it may be God’s plan that children are naturally spaced out 2 or more years apart perhaps you could share this with your husband.  I certainly can see good reasons for this. 
On the other hand I know women like yourself whose fertility returned shortly after the birth of their child inspite of breasfeeding exclusively.  Her children are all very close together and she has since died leaving behind 6 children all under 14.  I think about that and realize that had she not been open to life so soon after the birth of each of her children , at least 2 maybe 3 of them would not be here today. 
I also wonder if those of you who are having trouble charting have tried to get help from a NFP teacher.  I know a good one who would love to help. 
Tired momma, I hope you get some good help.  This can be very stressful on the marriage.  Is your husband at least on board with NFP?  I know the classes that my husband and I took really got him to understand the beauty of it and the sexuality that God intended for us.  He actually shares it now with his co-workers!

Jeanine, I find it ironic that at one point you are saying to stop judging the family size of others, and then later on you say God doesn’t (in general) intend for us to have children spaced more closely than 2 years apart. The “not judging” has to go both ways. I practiced ecological breastfeeding and still got pregnant when my daughter was 5 months old. Having children spaced closely together has been nothing but a blessing in our lives and we thank God for His gifts everyday. Also, as the mother of twins, I know for certain that sometimes God sends children spaced VERY closely together.

That article is brilliant! Thank you so, so much for posting it. It’s the most helpful article on “justa causa” I’ve ever read—and I’ve read dozens.

As for the postpartum abstinence, I know that in most cases abstinence is only required for a few days or a week at a time. But what if the woman has nearly constant mucus that ranges from lotiony to very stretchy but never quite gets to the “less fertile” range? Especially if for good reason she has had to supplement with formula and is therefore expecting an earlier return of fertility? And what if her teaching couple won’t call her back?! It’s doable, and we’re doing fine—mostly because we have a strong motivation to space our babies—but boy would I love it if there were less guesswork!

My dearest wish would be for all the NFP methods to stop bickering and analyze all the data they’ve collected to come up with some better guidelines for the postpartum time. We all have the same ultimate goal of helping couples live out marriage in accordance with God’s plan. The differences in methodology are real; most couples will find that one method better suits their situation than the others. But I simply do not understand the animosity among them.

Anne, what method are you using?  It’s a shame that your instructors are not answering you back.  There is some online software that may be of help to you, but it is Billings.  My hubby and I teach Billings and are about 40 minutes from NYC.  There have to be instructors closer to you.

I hear what you are saying about animosity.  I have not witnessed it, but have heard about it happening.  Incidentally, we were trained in a different method than we practiced the first nine years of our marriage (STM) so I think we are less biased.  I have also recommended Creighton to a few friends who we thought would prefer it.  It is a shame to see any ‘my method is best’ attitude.  All are as effective and all are similar.  I believe both Creighton and STM were based on Billings, which CLEARLY makes it the best.  Just kidding…

Also, besides finding a spiritual director, I can’t find a Catholic therapist in my area. I went to therapist once during my last pregnancy as was suggested by my midwife (she was concerned about post-partum depression) & what I got from there & other al-anon type sources are promoting me leaving my husband. Which is against what I believe. He is not physically abusive, it’s just emotionally, mentally, spiritually straining.

S—I am so sorry you have to deal with this.  I would seek out spiritual help by praying and seeking someone near you—asking your priest for referrals (is there pastoral counseling?)  Are there older women in your parish that could be a mentor?

You are wise to postpone another child.  Your children need you and your husband to be healthy.  I pray you can find the direction you need.

Good point, Beth.  Without a good understanding of the basis of the teaching against artificial contraception, it’s going to be very hard for people to take it seriously.  And it’s hard to commit a mortal sin without full knowledge.

When I said that I thought it would be hard for couples to use NFP selfishly, I was actually referring to couples who use NFP to avoid a pregnancy.  My point was that if they were avoiding for trivial reasons, they probably wouldn’t care about putting forth all the effort to use NFP, and would resort to an easier methods of avoiding.  The fact that they are using a method that is open to life and which involves sacrifices and hard work doesn’t seem compatible with avoiding for superficial reasons.  Of course, I’m sure there are exceptions to this, because as you say, NFP is not an absolute guarantee of virtue.